Thanks for recording and sharing this conversation, truly. It may be noise for someone but I found it uniquely constructive, enlightening, and somewhat therapeutic to listen to and reflect on.
While I'm sitting here feeling helpless and depressed (ie emotional) about many of the exact same things, it's interesting to realize I don't have to wear the claim by Israel that you guys do and I can't relate to the events the way Jews might, especially the ones who have a personal narrative that allows them to see these things for what they are, ethnic cleansing flirting with a genocide. I can't escape the connection it all has to USA legacy of ethnic cleansing and genocide, and the enabling role of the USA empire in all of the history and current events, but I'm not saddled with the added ethnic/family connection to work through on top of that.
EDIT and actually being aware of this now, I should probably make an effort to check in with jewish friends rather than avoidance, they aren't all rabid zionists
Thanks again, I feel like your opinions are valuable and would be a mistake to not be shared.
Yes, seconded, it was so worth listening to, very thoughtful conversation at a time when the stakes are so high and people are so inflamed. Particularly the articulation of the fact that it's not just Jews worldwide who have a claim on Israel, but the state of Israel who has a claim on representing Jews worldwide--I had not heard that explained so clearly anywhere else.
this was good, also the only podcast to point out the realities of the Jewish diaspora (being extremely Zionist in theory and practice while quarrelling with your existing family in Israel over some slight and not talking to them)
Would love having Miko Peled on! He’s a neighbor here in DC, I’ve met him a few times at some local community organizing efforts. Great voice on these issues and knows the Israeli psyche quite well.
Yasha do you have any reading on the phenomenon of diaspora becoming counterintuitively more nationalist as they become more integrated? I’d be very interested to learn about that. Seems to me like a side effect of the our current extreme focus on identity.
Regarding your doubts about recording this episode, I can say I found it very worthwhile to listen to.
Good discussion, and good to know I’m not alone in being upset with current situation in Gaza and the failure of the western media to explain the history of why there are over two million people crammed into Gaza in the first place. I really fear that in the short term Palestinians, and especially those in Gaza, will be going through a very dark period in their history. However I don’t see how a state like Israel, which is addicted to war (quoting Norman Finkelstein here) can survive in the long term. Have seen clips of huge demonstrations in the Arab world in support of Palestinians. Sooner or later these countries will develop strong leaders unwilling to follow the dictates of Israel’s sponsors, the US and EU. When you are surrounded by people who hate you because of your past behaviour, and you make zero efforts at diplomacy or accommodation in your region, what chance is there of survival as a state. I’m saying this because I am also concerned about the safety and security of Israelis, and the viability of their society, given its current trajectory.
People are losing patience with Israel. I don’t understand why they don’t care about what they’re creating against them. Like, just move out of Israel. It seriously drives me nuts. They will create an army against them.
Great show so far guys though I have only watched 15 mins. Not gotten to the I-P stuff but I expect to find your views always outside the mainstream noise..
I try to stay away from the I-P issue myself since it is such an emotional issue for both sides and having no connection to either side personally, I dislike inflaming stuff.
It is trollish I feel sometimes to weigh in on such topics superficially without much knowledge or even strong feeling beyond the general sensation of shock and vague unease that all violence (however remote from one) causes.
I suppose I am desensitized to violence seeing so much of it so routinely in the news.
But I don't think it is good to join the outrage cycle just to take a side as if it is a goddamn football match (especially when you don't have non-nuanced views which would be hard to explain and probably annoy just about everyone as they are more about the human condition in the abstract-it is not callousness so much as the absence of made up and strategic outrage..usually people with no involvement with either side are looking for a coded support net for one side or the other for their own reasons and the notion that someone on the left may genuinely not have a "side" at all seems odd).
I get that people with ties to either side or truly sincere outrage have strong views but tbh as a lefty generally, I don't feel obligated per se to have an opinion on it :-/. Some of it is just the dynamics of social media I think which degrades everything reducing it to a pack of insincere hashtags...
By now there are always two different dynamics to anything-one the real part with all its complexities and the other the bogus insincere crap in various forms of media from broadcast media to social media (which is what you covered in the first 15 mins a bit).
I liked the approach BLM took on it, which is that it is not part of their main mission.
This happened at a time when a split is going on in TST and I did agree with Greaves re: the parts of the activist left that do get their boots on the ground and accomplish stuff.
They are so vital to the left and if every group has to take an official position on every charged issue, that would be a drag on their main missions.
I like the philosophical or academic parts pf the left as well as the boots on the ground people and the two are very different.
Usually the attempt to force every part of the left to have an official and loudly stated view on everything is a bit of a rw or centrist troll strategy to make the left flank completely ineffectual and I am usually happy when leftist groups don't take the bait.
Edit: Of course as with anything complicated, beyond these trite/sound-byte like words I write, I have complicated views about it. It is so easy for essentially deeply conservative/regressive thought processes to dilute things to meaninglessness under the guise of pragmatism. Words are futile devices..I never read anything I write without thinking this sounds like such brainless pap or worse pompous, self satisfied pap (except where it is deep green) about world events that are very real and inescapable to so many. And yet I spew out this dreck off and on..I suppose that is what keeps these industries going. I respect your and Evgenia's unabombers of podcasting worldview in a way and yet I would be very sorry to lose your podcast as it does keep one informed. The Man controls us all!
Thanks for recording and sharing this conversation, truly. It may be noise for someone but I found it uniquely constructive, enlightening, and somewhat therapeutic to listen to and reflect on.
While I'm sitting here feeling helpless and depressed (ie emotional) about many of the exact same things, it's interesting to realize I don't have to wear the claim by Israel that you guys do and I can't relate to the events the way Jews might, especially the ones who have a personal narrative that allows them to see these things for what they are, ethnic cleansing flirting with a genocide. I can't escape the connection it all has to USA legacy of ethnic cleansing and genocide, and the enabling role of the USA empire in all of the history and current events, but I'm not saddled with the added ethnic/family connection to work through on top of that.
EDIT and actually being aware of this now, I should probably make an effort to check in with jewish friends rather than avoidance, they aren't all rabid zionists
Thanks again, I feel like your opinions are valuable and would be a mistake to not be shared.
Yes, seconded, it was so worth listening to, very thoughtful conversation at a time when the stakes are so high and people are so inflamed. Particularly the articulation of the fact that it's not just Jews worldwide who have a claim on Israel, but the state of Israel who has a claim on representing Jews worldwide--I had not heard that explained so clearly anywhere else.
this was good, also the only podcast to point out the realities of the Jewish diaspora (being extremely Zionist in theory and practice while quarrelling with your existing family in Israel over some slight and not talking to them)
Would love having Miko Peled on! He’s a neighbor here in DC, I’ve met him a few times at some local community organizing efforts. Great voice on these issues and knows the Israeli psyche quite well.
Katie Halper interviewed Peled recently. You can find it on her YouTube channel.
He was on Breakthrough News too. With Brian Becker. It was good.
Yasha do you have any reading on the phenomenon of diaspora becoming counterintuitively more nationalist as they become more integrated? I’d be very interested to learn about that. Seems to me like a side effect of the our current extreme focus on identity.
Regarding your doubts about recording this episode, I can say I found it very worthwhile to listen to.
Great show. Honest discussion. Thank you.
Re: your upcoming show on Tarkovsky, I wonder if you've ever seen this:
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1373300/
Good discussion, and good to know I’m not alone in being upset with current situation in Gaza and the failure of the western media to explain the history of why there are over two million people crammed into Gaza in the first place. I really fear that in the short term Palestinians, and especially those in Gaza, will be going through a very dark period in their history. However I don’t see how a state like Israel, which is addicted to war (quoting Norman Finkelstein here) can survive in the long term. Have seen clips of huge demonstrations in the Arab world in support of Palestinians. Sooner or later these countries will develop strong leaders unwilling to follow the dictates of Israel’s sponsors, the US and EU. When you are surrounded by people who hate you because of your past behaviour, and you make zero efforts at diplomacy or accommodation in your region, what chance is there of survival as a state. I’m saying this because I am also concerned about the safety and security of Israelis, and the viability of their society, given its current trajectory.
People are losing patience with Israel. I don’t understand why they don’t care about what they’re creating against them. Like, just move out of Israel. It seriously drives me nuts. They will create an army against them.
Great show so far guys though I have only watched 15 mins. Not gotten to the I-P stuff but I expect to find your views always outside the mainstream noise..
I try to stay away from the I-P issue myself since it is such an emotional issue for both sides and having no connection to either side personally, I dislike inflaming stuff.
It is trollish I feel sometimes to weigh in on such topics superficially without much knowledge or even strong feeling beyond the general sensation of shock and vague unease that all violence (however remote from one) causes.
I suppose I am desensitized to violence seeing so much of it so routinely in the news.
But I don't think it is good to join the outrage cycle just to take a side as if it is a goddamn football match (especially when you don't have non-nuanced views which would be hard to explain and probably annoy just about everyone as they are more about the human condition in the abstract-it is not callousness so much as the absence of made up and strategic outrage..usually people with no involvement with either side are looking for a coded support net for one side or the other for their own reasons and the notion that someone on the left may genuinely not have a "side" at all seems odd).
I get that people with ties to either side or truly sincere outrage have strong views but tbh as a lefty generally, I don't feel obligated per se to have an opinion on it :-/. Some of it is just the dynamics of social media I think which degrades everything reducing it to a pack of insincere hashtags...
By now there are always two different dynamics to anything-one the real part with all its complexities and the other the bogus insincere crap in various forms of media from broadcast media to social media (which is what you covered in the first 15 mins a bit).
I liked the approach BLM took on it, which is that it is not part of their main mission.
This happened at a time when a split is going on in TST and I did agree with Greaves re: the parts of the activist left that do get their boots on the ground and accomplish stuff.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/social-justice-rebellion-satanic-temple/675481/
They are so vital to the left and if every group has to take an official position on every charged issue, that would be a drag on their main missions.
I like the philosophical or academic parts pf the left as well as the boots on the ground people and the two are very different.
Usually the attempt to force every part of the left to have an official and loudly stated view on everything is a bit of a rw or centrist troll strategy to make the left flank completely ineffectual and I am usually happy when leftist groups don't take the bait.
Edit: Of course as with anything complicated, beyond these trite/sound-byte like words I write, I have complicated views about it. It is so easy for essentially deeply conservative/regressive thought processes to dilute things to meaninglessness under the guise of pragmatism. Words are futile devices..I never read anything I write without thinking this sounds like such brainless pap or worse pompous, self satisfied pap (except where it is deep green) about world events that are very real and inescapable to so many. And yet I spew out this dreck off and on..I suppose that is what keeps these industries going. I respect your and Evgenia's unabombers of podcasting worldview in a way and yet I would be very sorry to lose your podcast as it does keep one informed. The Man controls us all!