2020/21 is one of those weird politically defining times like Russiagate that I still think about a lot. My (intuitive) theory is the bifurcation had to do with American root programming being awakened, whether you were raised with it or assimilated into it. A lot of people realized that in a crisis, their core beliefs and emotional triggers are essentially libertarian when it becomes clear that public action comes at an individual cost, and solutions are imperfect. They walked back from the ledge of wanting to change society, realizing they'd rather preserve their lifestyle and avoid the ambiguous/unknown, and found themselves finally at home in conservative America.
I don't know many Europeans who experienced this allergic response. (well, maybe a couple Dutch)
The lifestyle preservation element of this absolutely cannot be overemphasized. I was a long time restaurant worker living in GA when Covid hit. Watching consumer-psychosis overtake people as it dawned on them that a temporary kink in the buffalo wing delivery hose might temporarily disrupt some of their previously unlimited access to anything, anywhere, at any time was jaw-dropping and eye-opening.
When it comes to the people being discussed here, I don’t think any of that can be separated from the fact that essentially the entire American media class, not matter on what level, and no matter how they present themselves politically, comes from the petit bourgeoisie
I think that the COVID/Vac conspiracy types tapped into something that is true, but they couldn’t look straight at because both liberals and conservatives are heavily indoctrinated not to have a class analysis of anything. COVID was in part deadly because of its comorbidities. Obesity, hyper tension, Asthma, all these conditions that our governments are just fine with. The healthcare system and agricultural subsidies are allowed to put profit over health and have done so at an industrial scale for decades. It’s not really a conspiracy, none of it was hidden. It was fought for in the courts in public. The media mostly just celebrated it and reported that everyone’s 401k was getting bigger.
COVID comes along and cuts like a scythe through all the neglect we openly tolerate. The liberals have to pretend that this health crises is special. Because they were complicit in the neglect and extraction that made COVID so deadly. The world wide death per million to COVID was ~900. The US average was ~3500.
The government actually doing something about a health crises probably did just seem really shocking to all these people on the right and left. We’re so accustomed to just letting people suffer and not thinking about it. All of a sudden this reparatory illness comes a long and exposes the consequences of our status que, and both sides react in opposite ways that allow themselves to maintain their illusions about capital. The liberal’s have been fighting universal healthcare for years, so when COVID comes along and forces some kind of implementation it has to be because this is a SUPER BUG. You better mask forever and wail like a banshee when someone takes it less serious than you.
The right has had people telling ghost stories about the government making fema camps for patriots and sending jack booted thugs to take your guns as part of the grift forever, and they just lose their minds when all of a sudden some kind of restriction materializes. Getting kicked out of the Starbucks for not masking feels exactly like getting bagged, disappeared, and thrown behind the razor wire. Because they have no context; having never been bagged, disappeared, etc.
The anti-vaxxers sometimes even have legitimate concerns about big Pharma. My partner was an immunologist physician and pre-covid we used to joke about how clinical trials touting the efficacy of XYZ drug are often exaggerated and the investigators are obviously paid off. Something to think about as our billionaire overclass flaunts their ozempic use and how they’re sure it doesn’t have any other side effects. “Isn’t it great this neurotransmitter isn’t used for anything else other than appetite? That we know of right now, anyway..”
It would have been great if COVID just didn’t happen, lockdowns worked and we didn’t need the vaccine in the first place. But it did happen, millions died, and I’ll take a slightly increased risks of “vaccine injury” to live my life. All your favorite SSRIs, sex, and party drugs have side effects too.
Everything is grey area in this life -- very little out there that is black and white. But it was telling that with covid some people suddenly realized that giant corps control medicine and vaccines and became critic of "the system" — but in this very narrow way that excluded everything else. I'm with you...but have you taken a look around? It's systemic. Everything we eat, wear, drink, and otherwise consume is designed to poison us and boost corporate profits. RFK Jr seems to be the poster child of this kind of narrow thinking — he's focused super narrowly on vaccines while ignoring agribusiness and horrible animal cruelty as a driver of deadly diseases.
Yeah, I argued with people during lock downs trying to press, “Pfizer is evil, but you should take the vax”. They were even facing a ton of litigation in 2019. Covid was a PR gift to them. “Their lobbyists and business department are the enemy, and the virologists and epidemiologists working for them are doing gods work,” this made friends with no one. It was either All good or all bad, depending on your team.
And amazingly the Pfizer CEO is totally MAGA and supported Dr Oz and Trump, and this RFK Jr. I guess that shows what he thinks of their antivax anti-pharma crusade.
Many have taken this path, and some are talking about it. Greenwald, Taibbi, Red Scare, Dore and many others. History happens quickly. It’s best not to have heroes. I don’t.
When Glenn Greenwald did his pivot around 2021, the HBGary story from 2011 was in the back of my mind. My hazy recollection is that the HBGary people talked about discrediting people and/or co-opting them. Perhaps this was a case of radical centrists effectively trying to discredit left figures and then effectively pushing the ones who were not really that deeply committed towards the right. The right has a much deeper pool of financial resources to work with as well, so for people who have some talent and ideological flexibility, it is not surprising that they would go to the right.
Around 2020-2021 tech billionaires started investing in an alternative media echo system with a right-wing slant too, which probably helped the process along (thinking of Rumble among others). It does kind of seem like there is a "party line" that people have to echo to operate in the space. My assumption is that people in this new media universe are effectively being subsidized from above in exchange for promoting right-wing narratives to their listeners, similar to the kind of old Fox News model where people are given talking points from management. I don't have any hard evidence to support these assumptions. However, I am just trying to make sense about how someone can go from trashing politicians like Ted Cruz -- with absolutely good reason -- to doing photo ops with him; or to go from promoting universal health care, to talking about how we need to privatize all government services; or for someone to champion civil liberties, to then pivot to working with some of the biggest for-profit surveillance companies in world history. Not really passing judgment either, just trying to understand the mechanisms.
The thing is, it really looks like these media personalities are fully onboard with it. If it is corruption of some kind, they enjoy the spoils of it.
I still listen to Greenwald from time to time, but I can't forget when he did an episode that almost like a love-letter, showering praise and empathy, onto Kyle Rittenhouse. Totally crazy shift, but it really looked like that's what he was feeling. No sunken/droopy Rachael Maddow eyes.
I think the reason these people "turn" is the same reason Trump won again, there is a natural flow of power and money in this system, and it feels great to be aligned within it. A lot of people discover that their deep early life programming already aligns with the nature of power in America, and everything becomes so much easier and more validating when you embrace the zeitgeist. It's like discovering who you really are, and that it is something that at once powerful and materially rewarding.
I remember hearing something from the union people that she had got pac money to fund that her movie. It seemed to be common knowledge but no one proved it. So whatever.
I started following them early on Twitter. Ana still had pictures of her working at an Italian restaurant as a hostess and getting her degree.
She was just really smart and funny and reminded me of my grandma. Dasha too. I love seeing diaspora do well.
One thing from the start though. They were always on the Trump train.
I always question people that downplay the power of the rights weaponized humor.
They're either naive or deceitful.
Usually both.
About that my political organizer talked on what we called the dirtbag left. They had monetized a type of model of snide contemptuous humor, targeting liberals.
All of whom are openly Republicans now.
Wondering what they were going to do when their model of only punching left. Wouldn't work out when Hillary was obviously going to lose the election. They did quite well like most of them did for 4 years. Turns out the left and the right. Love, hating liberals and went along with the ride.
And just like my organizer predicted, the material dried up after Trump lost the election. Ownig the libs just wasn't fun without Trump centric media.
I don't know them personally, but losing the first producer change the show from Bernie bro to an edgelord direction. She had a lot to do with the podcast. And whoever replaced her definitely has connections in the alt-right.
I'd say their first big change was the Tulsi interview.
She's a siren. She should have been Greek.
After that was Bannon and the one that made me tell them Fuck you. when they were laughing about dead kids with Alex Jones.
What made me know, they're willingly being evil is that they never messed with Milo yiannopoulos.
Even they know having that fucking twink is bad news and even with their black pill content they weren't stupid enough to deal with him.
That's all the intent I need.
I do feel sorry for Ana having what looks like a midlife crisis.
I just assume she's laughing all the way to the bank.
I’ve read a fair amount of Ames, Taibbi, (Dolan, +a smidge of Limonov) but somehow I’ve avoided Yasha until now. What a pleasant surprise, very sympathetic intelligent conversation from both husband and wife. I particularly liked the discussion of the merits of what you called ‘old-world values’ — it’s rare to hear cultural criticism which frankly advocates for the urbane, intellectual, & cosmopolitan, and yet which avoids condescension & literati jingoism.
The only thing I think you missed a little, (or maybe you don’t agree with it), is that it’s not clear how sincerely political any of the Brooklyn leftists of the mid teens were. In my opinion there was always something fabricated about their politics. There was a left aesthetic, but was it ever much more than a pose? To get into the right parties, to fuck the right people, to go on the right podcasts and so on? What’s the evidence if so? I don’t think these people ever wrote much about politics, ever spoke about it except in a breezy, cliquish way. In the 60s, there was a big labor movement, a big civil rights movement, with a real undertow which pulled middle-class radicals into it. But in the 2010s, once the phenomenon of Bernie left the scene, what superstructure was there to keep aesthetes like Anna and Dasha from drifting off along the current of, as you say, ‘cultural vitality’?
Red Scare was never really leftist or socialist or Russian in the first place, just in branding and vibe. Then the algorithm took them for a ride to Trump land, where they really hit the jackpot
This rightward swing among the influencer/moralizers is really fascinating — your impressions on the kinds of reification that follow from graphically representing attention/following is really insightful.
As far as being left to die — this was really the experience of most Americans… but not the professional strata. The regional elites were forcing us into jobsites & refusing to distribute PPE, the neocon lawfare institutes & their weapons manufacturing patrons overturned our pandemic regs over night here. And workers were forced to wildcat & walk off the job to get support. This was the primary point of tension here in the Midwest. The fact that the screws were choking us out — worse than animals was insult to injury.
Obviously the bohemian moralizers who expect to be served by us will suddenly rediscover their class interests in such a milieu — particularly as St. Bernie showed his acolytes how easy it is to capitulate & personally benefit from it.
Anyways, I wish you luck in your second life as an internet stripper, Yasha. 😂😂😂😂😂 There's much worse ways to earn a living. 🙂
Fascinating listen. I found it particularly interesting how dismissive you both were about joshua citarellas podcast. (I recently discovered him due to him being on trueanon). It really does drive home how there’s no real solidarity on the left. Thats not a criticism - you may have valid criticisms of citarella, just an observation. I didn’t listen to the dasha interview but it was panned in the comments section as being vapid drivel. His interview with quinn slobodian was fantastic i listened to it twice plus bought quinns book cracked-up calitalism.
While Covid really brought out a sense of solidarity and community in some groups (the people scrambling to construct autoclavable PPE in their sewing rooms and repurposed basements (setting aside how effective it might have been) to give away to essential workers and well, anyone who wanted it, grocery runs for compromised people, and health care workers and similar saints), it also brought about the most reactionary toxicity, from dragging people who wanted to mask and distance to really stupid "horse paste" jokes (btw Blumenthal is as guilty as anyone with this). This has left a lot of people totally broken mentally, in a lot of cases they've merged with other reactionary elements from anti-trans to anti-immigrant to anti-woke to create a soupy mess of new worldviews with strange intersectionalities and a whole new minefield to try to navigate when trying to avoid any confrontation in conversations with these people, and hitting a nerve routinely just leads to the stupidest unnuanced talking points imaginable. Covid sparked the most baby out with the bathwater kneejerking I've experienced since 9/11.
This is the second time you've teased us with a Yasha onlyfans page. You should set one up and have people pay to hear the audio version of Surveillance Valley 10 minutes at a time.
Find a way to view this madness as them just easing the path for what Professor Chomsky has been telling us radical Okies to do for years (2009 correspondence):
Really impressed to hear about what the unions are doing, and particularly what you're achieving. Exactly the right thing. My guess is that a lot of the "tea party" movement could become a militant part of the left, with the kinds of efforts that you are carrying out -- and unfortunately few others. Most prefer to ridicule "death panels," etc., missing the authentic grievances and what can be done to direct them in very constructive channels.
And thanks for the kind words about Carol, really appreciated.
2020/21 is one of those weird politically defining times like Russiagate that I still think about a lot. My (intuitive) theory is the bifurcation had to do with American root programming being awakened, whether you were raised with it or assimilated into it. A lot of people realized that in a crisis, their core beliefs and emotional triggers are essentially libertarian when it becomes clear that public action comes at an individual cost, and solutions are imperfect. They walked back from the ledge of wanting to change society, realizing they'd rather preserve their lifestyle and avoid the ambiguous/unknown, and found themselves finally at home in conservative America.
I don't know many Europeans who experienced this allergic response. (well, maybe a couple Dutch)
The lifestyle preservation element of this absolutely cannot be overemphasized. I was a long time restaurant worker living in GA when Covid hit. Watching consumer-psychosis overtake people as it dawned on them that a temporary kink in the buffalo wing delivery hose might temporarily disrupt some of their previously unlimited access to anything, anywhere, at any time was jaw-dropping and eye-opening.
Thats a good way of putting it.
When it comes to the people being discussed here, I don’t think any of that can be separated from the fact that essentially the entire American media class, not matter on what level, and no matter how they present themselves politically, comes from the petit bourgeoisie
I think that the COVID/Vac conspiracy types tapped into something that is true, but they couldn’t look straight at because both liberals and conservatives are heavily indoctrinated not to have a class analysis of anything. COVID was in part deadly because of its comorbidities. Obesity, hyper tension, Asthma, all these conditions that our governments are just fine with. The healthcare system and agricultural subsidies are allowed to put profit over health and have done so at an industrial scale for decades. It’s not really a conspiracy, none of it was hidden. It was fought for in the courts in public. The media mostly just celebrated it and reported that everyone’s 401k was getting bigger.
COVID comes along and cuts like a scythe through all the neglect we openly tolerate. The liberals have to pretend that this health crises is special. Because they were complicit in the neglect and extraction that made COVID so deadly. The world wide death per million to COVID was ~900. The US average was ~3500.
The government actually doing something about a health crises probably did just seem really shocking to all these people on the right and left. We’re so accustomed to just letting people suffer and not thinking about it. All of a sudden this reparatory illness comes a long and exposes the consequences of our status que, and both sides react in opposite ways that allow themselves to maintain their illusions about capital. The liberal’s have been fighting universal healthcare for years, so when COVID comes along and forces some kind of implementation it has to be because this is a SUPER BUG. You better mask forever and wail like a banshee when someone takes it less serious than you.
The right has had people telling ghost stories about the government making fema camps for patriots and sending jack booted thugs to take your guns as part of the grift forever, and they just lose their minds when all of a sudden some kind of restriction materializes. Getting kicked out of the Starbucks for not masking feels exactly like getting bagged, disappeared, and thrown behind the razor wire. Because they have no context; having never been bagged, disappeared, etc.
The anti-vaxxers sometimes even have legitimate concerns about big Pharma. My partner was an immunologist physician and pre-covid we used to joke about how clinical trials touting the efficacy of XYZ drug are often exaggerated and the investigators are obviously paid off. Something to think about as our billionaire overclass flaunts their ozempic use and how they’re sure it doesn’t have any other side effects. “Isn’t it great this neurotransmitter isn’t used for anything else other than appetite? That we know of right now, anyway..”
It would have been great if COVID just didn’t happen, lockdowns worked and we didn’t need the vaccine in the first place. But it did happen, millions died, and I’ll take a slightly increased risks of “vaccine injury” to live my life. All your favorite SSRIs, sex, and party drugs have side effects too.
Everything is grey area in this life -- very little out there that is black and white. But it was telling that with covid some people suddenly realized that giant corps control medicine and vaccines and became critic of "the system" — but in this very narrow way that excluded everything else. I'm with you...but have you taken a look around? It's systemic. Everything we eat, wear, drink, and otherwise consume is designed to poison us and boost corporate profits. RFK Jr seems to be the poster child of this kind of narrow thinking — he's focused super narrowly on vaccines while ignoring agribusiness and horrible animal cruelty as a driver of deadly diseases.
Yeah, I argued with people during lock downs trying to press, “Pfizer is evil, but you should take the vax”. They were even facing a ton of litigation in 2019. Covid was a PR gift to them. “Their lobbyists and business department are the enemy, and the virologists and epidemiologists working for them are doing gods work,” this made friends with no one. It was either All good or all bad, depending on your team.
And amazingly the Pfizer CEO is totally MAGA and supported Dr Oz and Trump, and this RFK Jr. I guess that shows what he thinks of their antivax anti-pharma crusade.
Many have taken this path, and some are talking about it. Greenwald, Taibbi, Red Scare, Dore and many others. History happens quickly. It’s best not to have heroes. I don’t.
Instantly smashed play
When Glenn Greenwald did his pivot around 2021, the HBGary story from 2011 was in the back of my mind. My hazy recollection is that the HBGary people talked about discrediting people and/or co-opting them. Perhaps this was a case of radical centrists effectively trying to discredit left figures and then effectively pushing the ones who were not really that deeply committed towards the right. The right has a much deeper pool of financial resources to work with as well, so for people who have some talent and ideological flexibility, it is not surprising that they would go to the right.
Around 2020-2021 tech billionaires started investing in an alternative media echo system with a right-wing slant too, which probably helped the process along (thinking of Rumble among others). It does kind of seem like there is a "party line" that people have to echo to operate in the space. My assumption is that people in this new media universe are effectively being subsidized from above in exchange for promoting right-wing narratives to their listeners, similar to the kind of old Fox News model where people are given talking points from management. I don't have any hard evidence to support these assumptions. However, I am just trying to make sense about how someone can go from trashing politicians like Ted Cruz -- with absolutely good reason -- to doing photo ops with him; or to go from promoting universal health care, to talking about how we need to privatize all government services; or for someone to champion civil liberties, to then pivot to working with some of the biggest for-profit surveillance companies in world history. Not really passing judgment either, just trying to understand the mechanisms.
The thing is, it really looks like these media personalities are fully onboard with it. If it is corruption of some kind, they enjoy the spoils of it.
I still listen to Greenwald from time to time, but I can't forget when he did an episode that almost like a love-letter, showering praise and empathy, onto Kyle Rittenhouse. Totally crazy shift, but it really looked like that's what he was feeling. No sunken/droopy Rachael Maddow eyes.
I think the reason these people "turn" is the same reason Trump won again, there is a natural flow of power and money in this system, and it feels great to be aligned within it. A lot of people discover that their deep early life programming already aligns with the nature of power in America, and everything becomes so much easier and more validating when you embrace the zeitgeist. It's like discovering who you really are, and that it is something that at once powerful and materially rewarding.
I remember hearing something from the union people that she had got pac money to fund that her movie. It seemed to be common knowledge but no one proved it. So whatever.
I started following them early on Twitter. Ana still had pictures of her working at an Italian restaurant as a hostess and getting her degree.
She was just really smart and funny and reminded me of my grandma. Dasha too. I love seeing diaspora do well.
One thing from the start though. They were always on the Trump train.
I always question people that downplay the power of the rights weaponized humor.
They're either naive or deceitful.
Usually both.
About that my political organizer talked on what we called the dirtbag left. They had monetized a type of model of snide contemptuous humor, targeting liberals.
All of whom are openly Republicans now.
Wondering what they were going to do when their model of only punching left. Wouldn't work out when Hillary was obviously going to lose the election. They did quite well like most of them did for 4 years. Turns out the left and the right. Love, hating liberals and went along with the ride.
And just like my organizer predicted, the material dried up after Trump lost the election. Ownig the libs just wasn't fun without Trump centric media.
I don't know them personally, but losing the first producer change the show from Bernie bro to an edgelord direction. She had a lot to do with the podcast. And whoever replaced her definitely has connections in the alt-right.
I'd say their first big change was the Tulsi interview.
She's a siren. She should have been Greek.
After that was Bannon and the one that made me tell them Fuck you. when they were laughing about dead kids with Alex Jones.
What made me know, they're willingly being evil is that they never messed with Milo yiannopoulos.
Even they know having that fucking twink is bad news and even with their black pill content they weren't stupid enough to deal with him.
That's all the intent I need.
I do feel sorry for Ana having what looks like a midlife crisis.
I just assume she's laughing all the way to the bank.
I’ve read a fair amount of Ames, Taibbi, (Dolan, +a smidge of Limonov) but somehow I’ve avoided Yasha until now. What a pleasant surprise, very sympathetic intelligent conversation from both husband and wife. I particularly liked the discussion of the merits of what you called ‘old-world values’ — it’s rare to hear cultural criticism which frankly advocates for the urbane, intellectual, & cosmopolitan, and yet which avoids condescension & literati jingoism.
The only thing I think you missed a little, (or maybe you don’t agree with it), is that it’s not clear how sincerely political any of the Brooklyn leftists of the mid teens were. In my opinion there was always something fabricated about their politics. There was a left aesthetic, but was it ever much more than a pose? To get into the right parties, to fuck the right people, to go on the right podcasts and so on? What’s the evidence if so? I don’t think these people ever wrote much about politics, ever spoke about it except in a breezy, cliquish way. In the 60s, there was a big labor movement, a big civil rights movement, with a real undertow which pulled middle-class radicals into it. But in the 2010s, once the phenomenon of Bernie left the scene, what superstructure was there to keep aesthetes like Anna and Dasha from drifting off along the current of, as you say, ‘cultural vitality’?
Red Scare was never really leftist or socialist or Russian in the first place, just in branding and vibe. Then the algorithm took them for a ride to Trump land, where they really hit the jackpot
standing offer to take our kids to the playground together in Manhattan
This rightward swing among the influencer/moralizers is really fascinating — your impressions on the kinds of reification that follow from graphically representing attention/following is really insightful.
As far as being left to die — this was really the experience of most Americans… but not the professional strata. The regional elites were forcing us into jobsites & refusing to distribute PPE, the neocon lawfare institutes & their weapons manufacturing patrons overturned our pandemic regs over night here. And workers were forced to wildcat & walk off the job to get support. This was the primary point of tension here in the Midwest. The fact that the screws were choking us out — worse than animals was insult to injury.
Obviously the bohemian moralizers who expect to be served by us will suddenly rediscover their class interests in such a milieu — particularly as St. Bernie showed his acolytes how easy it is to capitulate & personally benefit from it.
Anyways, I wish you luck in your second life as an internet stripper, Yasha. 😂😂😂😂😂 There's much worse ways to earn a living. 🙂
Fascinating listen. I found it particularly interesting how dismissive you both were about joshua citarellas podcast. (I recently discovered him due to him being on trueanon). It really does drive home how there’s no real solidarity on the left. Thats not a criticism - you may have valid criticisms of citarella, just an observation. I didn’t listen to the dasha interview but it was panned in the comments section as being vapid drivel. His interview with quinn slobodian was fantastic i listened to it twice plus bought quinns book cracked-up calitalism.
There's a TV show that ran for 13 episodes. It's called incorporated. It's a pretty good depiction of the world we're heading towards
Who is your audience and how will you sell out to them? Fair play to neither of you selling out.
While Covid really brought out a sense of solidarity and community in some groups (the people scrambling to construct autoclavable PPE in their sewing rooms and repurposed basements (setting aside how effective it might have been) to give away to essential workers and well, anyone who wanted it, grocery runs for compromised people, and health care workers and similar saints), it also brought about the most reactionary toxicity, from dragging people who wanted to mask and distance to really stupid "horse paste" jokes (btw Blumenthal is as guilty as anyone with this). This has left a lot of people totally broken mentally, in a lot of cases they've merged with other reactionary elements from anti-trans to anti-immigrant to anti-woke to create a soupy mess of new worldviews with strange intersectionalities and a whole new minefield to try to navigate when trying to avoid any confrontation in conversations with these people, and hitting a nerve routinely just leads to the stupidest unnuanced talking points imaginable. Covid sparked the most baby out with the bathwater kneejerking I've experienced since 9/11.
This is the second time you've teased us with a Yasha onlyfans page. You should set one up and have people pay to hear the audio version of Surveillance Valley 10 minutes at a time.
the page is up and running. this is not a joke. i repeat: this is not a joke.
Find a way to view this madness as them just easing the path for what Professor Chomsky has been telling us radical Okies to do for years (2009 correspondence):
Really impressed to hear about what the unions are doing, and particularly what you're achieving. Exactly the right thing. My guess is that a lot of the "tea party" movement could become a militant part of the left, with the kinds of efforts that you are carrying out -- and unfortunately few others. Most prefer to ridicule "death panels," etc., missing the authentic grievances and what can be done to direct them in very constructive channels.
And thanks for the kind words about Carol, really appreciated.
Noam